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[kyrasantae]

[09:00:03 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän [EΣΨ] The Reluctant Engineer — Engg Week is over, amen!: only if you promise to a) never drink, and b) never to endorse engg week again
[09:00:28 PM] Щîł£ Ĭ άΜ [102 lab, 131 hw, 101 hw, 102 hw, 105 questions, 131 hw2]done engg 101, 100 lab: never drink is impossible....cuz even u drink...LOL
[09:02:40 PM] William: i didnt really do much for engg week this year....
[09:02:44 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: too bad
[09:02:54 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: you endorsed it in words
[09:03:27 PM] William: well....its not that bad is it?
[09:03:33 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: yes it is
[09:05:08 PM] William: what is sooo bad about engg
[09:05:31 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: you won't understand
[09:06:17 PM] William: even some profs think it was teh best time in their young time.....
[09:06:35 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: for example, the crossing of the line between pride and arrogance
[09:07:07 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: another: veiled male chauvinism
[09:08:04 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: in this case
[09:08:15 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: i'm referring to the sexually oriented jokes
[09:08:48 PM] William: well..............its hard not to find that elsewhere tho
[09:09:34 PM] William: pride or arrogance.....welllll................pride is good nontheless....arrogance....i dont see any engineers being arrogance towards other engineers
[09:09:43 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: not arrogant towards others
[09:09:48 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: arrogant as a species
[09:11:08 PM] William: well.........theres nothing really wrong with it.....we paid sooooo much effort for what we have....
[09:11:36 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: doesn't mean we think that we're better than anyone else in the world and can do anything we want and get away with it
[09:11:53 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: we are rightly scorned by the other faculties
[09:12:00 PM] William: well.......we arent getting away from anything
[09:12:05 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: no
[09:12:08 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: getting away WITH anything
[09:12:18 PM] William: thats their freedom to do so
[09:12:24 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: officially sanctioned to pull pranks
[09:12:54 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: yes but when practically all of the other facs absolutely HATE our arrogance, and they use that word, don't you think we need to take a look at that seriously?
[09:14:20 PM] William: well......maybe at theh same time u should be thinking.....its a tradition created becuz we are just different from the others.....and try to stand on the side u are on
[09:14:28 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: no
[09:14:30 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: i will not stand
[09:15:27 PM] William: arrogance is the word used by others who cant achieve what we can do....they are jealous of what we are able to do....
[09:15:39 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: we live in a society where equality is valued; not that of fifty years ago when there was still many inequalities, including but not exclusively sexism and racism. it is no longer appropriate to demonstrate or imply supremacy over others.
[09:16:43 PM] William: personally, i dont think sexism and racism is a problem right now.....they are extreme rare case to have
[09:16:47 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: exactly
[09:16:55 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: they are no longer a problem because we don't want inequality
[09:17:46 PM] William: but the problem is do we have the inequality ourselves or do we have the problem given by the others....
[09:17:58 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: we create it for ourselves by declaring supremacy
[09:18:40 PM] William: i think it is a stereotype put on us by others
[09:18:54 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: and perpetuated by our own kind!
[09:19:33 PM] William: k....even if it is....i dont think it really matters
[09:19:41 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: yes it does
[09:20:25 PM] William: me for an example....i dont care what non-engineers say about us........i am myself
[09:20:39 PM] Forgottenlord has been added to the conversation.
[09:20:49 PM] William: it doesnt matter what other ppl think....its what u think that matters
[09:21:46 PM] William: i really dono how we got into this convo .....
[09:21:48 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: as much as we tell ourselves that we should not be affected by what others say, we are. always.
[09:21:56 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: you asked me what was wrong with engg week
[09:22:45 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: you can be who you want to be but ultimately you will be judged as the person next to you
[09:23:13 PM] William: but they dont know u.....
[09:23:27 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: and that is WHY they will judge you by the stereotype
[09:23:27 PM] William: u are the toughest judge of urself
[09:23:34 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: not that kind of judging
[09:24:04 PM] Forgottenlord: "we paid sooooo much effort for what we have": A) why is it that the level of work we do can dictate how we treat and respect others. There is not excuse that allows us to hold and display our pride in such a manner that it becomes arrogance
[09:24:28 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: and btw Will that's a 2nd year SoftE speaking :P
[09:25:10 PM] Forgottenlord: B) it is debatable whether we can truly claim we do more or jump through more hoops than those that are not in engineering. I'd say because we are able to enter Engineering straight from HS, compete against our own faculty the entire way AND have everything practically decided for us, we have very little to worry about in terms of planning
[09:25:35 PM] Forgottenlord: our concern is truly sitting behind the books - and even then, it is debatable whether we truly do more or whether we do as much but we do it more often
[09:26:34 PM] William: i didnt say pride is arrogance.....but it is good for us to have pride
[09:26:47 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: pride becomes arrogance
[09:26:53 PM] Forgottenlord: an excess of pride is arrogance
[09:27:01 PM] Forgottenlord: I believe by actual definition
[09:27:18 PM] William: that is just personal opinion
[09:27:29 PM] Forgottenlord: "arrogance is the word used by others who cant achieve what we can do....they are jealous of what we are able to do...." A) Why does that give us the right to flaunt it in their face. Do you know who did that to us in school? The bullies and the jocks. Back then, it was sports and strength. Why do we have the right now that the area of advantage is for us to return the favor?
[09:27:49 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: but yeah if you're proud to the point where the other facs are annoyed at you, it's arrogance
[09:28:39 PM] Forgottenlord: B) it is a mistake to assume that they are jealous. There is a percentage that are jealous and wish they could do what we're doing, but a vast percentage of our school mates didn't enter Engineering not because they couldn't, but because they didn't want to
[09:29:20 PM] William: well......if u are in engg....and if u think u are facing the stereotype from otehr faculty....then u have to deal with it
[09:29:32 PM] Forgottenlord: whether it be because they wanted to go into one of the (what I like to call) "big 5" (Pharmacy, Medicine, Nursing, Law and Business) or because their interests were truly elsewhere, the majority of them MADE that conscious choice
[09:29:34 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: "arrogance: offensively exaggerating one's own importance" "pride: 1. conceit, 2. justifiable self-respect, 3. elation over an act or posession, 4. haughty behaviour, disdain, 5. ostentatious display"
[09:30:49 PM] Forgottenlord: I may have to live with the stereotype - but that doesn't mean I don't oppose it
[09:30:56 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: but it's not just going to be in school when you'll be faced with the stereotype - it's outside in the world too - do you want to be talking to someone you just met at a wedding banquet and thinking of you negatively because you're an engineer?
[09:31:06 PM] Forgottenlord: I dislike the stereotype - but I love the work
[09:31:42 PM] William: well......personally....i really dont see any of these stereotype myself.....
[09:32:10 PM] William: maybe just maybe....u are hanging out with the wrong people all teh time....
[09:32:14 PM] Forgottenlord: how many non-engineers do you hang out with?
[09:32:19 PM] William: many
[09:32:34 PM] William: in fact i know more non-engineers than engineers prolly
[09:32:38 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: stereotypes have basis in fact. if there were no one who was actually like that, the stereotype would not have developed.
[09:32:55 PM] Forgottenlord: I study at St Joes - there's 2 Physics, one Ag, a few Ed and a heck of a lot of arts
[09:33:17 PM] William: well...of course arts ppl would hate engineers
[09:33:25 PM] William: just as much as i hate for arts...
[09:33:31 PM] William: well...u might ask why
[09:33:32 PM] Forgottenlord: it was one of the physics people that put our fac down
[09:33:36 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: most of the ppl in my choir are Ed or Arts
[09:34:06 PM] William: but its simply i cant do art.....i develop this "hate" for teh faculty...
[09:34:19 PM] William: same thing may apply for them...
[09:34:30 PM] Forgottenlord: it's not the arts people that I have problems with
[09:34:46 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: and guess what, I can do art
[09:34:47 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: :P
[09:34:56 PM] William: well...good for u
[09:35:08 PM] Forgottenlord: (I can't do arts)
[09:35:10 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: does that mean you hate me for not going to arts, where my attitude better "belongs"?
[09:35:26 PM] Forgottenlord: they've got their opinions - but it's usually along the respect line. However, not a single one of them disagrees with the statement that Engineers on the whole are arrogant
[09:36:18 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: and this is all over the world :P
[09:36:26 PM] William: well....depends on what type of person u are....i dont have things against the fac.
[09:36:45 PM] William: if i have stuff....its only against a person or a subject itself
[09:36:50 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: i don't have anything against the fac either, it's against the people IN the fac
[09:37:30 PM] William: weell.......theres not much i can do about it....
[09:38:26 PM] Forgottenlord: every single person I meet that says they cannot do anything about it, I want to hit them
[09:38:34 PM] Forgottenlord: it's one thing to say you won't do anything about it
[09:38:37 PM] Forgottenlord: I can respect that
[09:38:37 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: i want to stab them :P
[09:38:46 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: and yea Will doesn't know about my new knife
[09:39:09 PM] Forgottenlord: but to say you can't do anything about it - you're telling a pretty fucking bold lie
[09:39:31 PM] Forgottenlord: yeah - be afraid - be very very afraid
[09:39:53 PM] William: whatever.....its ur believe....
[09:40:20 PM] William: u can either go along with it or not
[09:40:38 PM] Forgottenlord: TBH - I'm not anti-Engg week - I'm anti-BS - that's why I wanted in on this convo
[09:40:54 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: engineers not being arrogant is BS :P
[09:40:58 PM] Forgottenlord: exactly
[09:41:17 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: that i get urges to stab people is NOT BS
[09:41:37 PM] William: well.....maybe thats teh majority of the ppl right now.....
[09:41:47 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: that has always been
[09:41:57 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: because effort has not been made to change it
[09:42:06 PM] William: so what.....tell them to change it
[09:42:21 PM] Forgottenlord: HAHAHAHA
[09:42:23 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: tell who
[09:42:29 PM] Forgottenlord: If what I hear is true - she tried and was told to fuck off
[09:42:30 PM] William: i dono...u tell me
[09:42:38 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: you are one of them!
[09:42:51 PM] William: of course....
[09:43:14 PM] William: i wont tell u to fuck off...cuz its not a nice thing to say to a girl...
[09:43:18 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: you are one who needs to make that effort to change it - such things are not done alone
[09:43:40 PM] Forgottenlord: so obviously, going for the neck isn't going to work - got to go after the individuals and get a voice going rather than a whistle
[09:43:53 PM] Tuuli Mustasydän: yea but you were there when Michel basically told me that and that he "won't let [my] beliefs interfere with the way" he wanted engg week to be
[09:44:10 PM] Forgottenlord: to be an asshole: which gets more attention - a lot of waves or a big tsunami

Comments

[kyrasantae.livejournal.com]

Another repost, as much as I hate lazy type-editing.

well you people need to freaking open your mind, arragance comes from stupidity, and just from reading this i can tell all of you are stupid, William is right you can't do nothing about what other people say or do its their problem if they are aso freaking narrow mind...now if you dont like soemthing you are doing freaking hell no one is making you saty in it, if you dont like being in the eng fac, then freaking get out do something you like...pride is something you need to get you thruogh life, if you have non you going to fail, but i do agree that to much pride cant be good and can lead to arragance, but havent you noticed that the pride-full peopel are the stupid assholes in this world HMM?!?!?! Personally I am not in eng, I am an artist, and Will jsut happen to be one of my closest friends and he is in eng, hell even my bro in eng, people said that eng are peoplethat only know a bit of math, physics and chem...well i desagree, before you talk, you should see the hell these people go through....bunch of retards...

[forgottenlord.livejournal.com]

A nice bundle of mass confusion here.

Dear sir;
If you care to insult the intellegence of others, please attempt to not insult yourself in the process. If you appear to be even less intelligent than those that you criticize, you will rarely be taken seriously.

That said, I think I should attempt to respond where I can.

Arrogance is defined as overbearing pride. It does not come from stupidity - but may be displayed because of stupidity or lack of class. To claim that a lot of people that flip burgers for a career are arrogant would be rather foolish - but a number of them would be considered stupid.

I agree you can do nothing about what other people say, but you can give them your opinion and argue it. Perhaps you won't get anywhere, perhaps you need something to jar them awake so they'll start listening to you, perhaps you can convince them in your third discussion. That is the art of debating. If you are successful, you will change their minds and what they say. If you are not, you have given your opinion on the matter - it may open their eyes to a new opinion or perhaps just make them aware that one more person believes in this. I think last night, William had his eyes openned to the opinion that Engineers on the whole are arrogant, but I do not believe his opinion has been changed. One mistake that some people make, though, is eventually you get two polarized opinions, and arguing it further just polarizes the two opinions even more.

Narrow mindedness is only combatted by openning their eyes. If they refuse to, that's a shame, but at least you tried.

"now if you dont like soemthing you are doing freaking hell no one is making you saty in it," - NO bloody clue what you were trying to say there

"if you dont like being in the eng fac, then freaking get out do something you like" - did you even read the conversation? That was addressed in there

"pride is something you need to get you thruogh life, if you have non you going to fail, but i do agree that to much pride cant be good and can lead to arragance" - agree entirely

"but havent you noticed that the pride-full peopel are the stupid assholes in this world HMM?!?!?!" - It's hard to call them stupid - we notice them because they are in such important positions in the world. See previous comment on stupidity vs arrogance